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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2010 7:30:58 AM
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19ramman85
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RichLp - and a couple of others, lol quote:
"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. The following are thoughts I had with myself, and God concerning this very passage; a) Ok - I'm trying this! Remembering to put - "FAITH", into it - and not any sense of financial gain, which could be misconstrued as - "greed(y)". b) I tithed diligently for well over a few years. Sometimes I had to - "make-up", here and there - but nonetheless, I did it! However .......... Nothing changed! I am still living in the same situation, as before; a house that needs serious repairs, wondering at times where we'll get money for; bills, eats, auto, etc. Maybe it's because; a) Maybe it's because the rest of my family isn't tithing. A very small possibility - however, since they all don't have much faith in God - I seriously doubt God is using that against - "ME". b) Maybe I'm still looking at the wrong aspect of it, some way, some how? c) Maybe I'm just one of those people God just doesn't want to bless - especially in that way? After all - doesn't he say - "I will Bless those I want to bless, curse those I want to curse, show mercy on those I want to show mercy on, etc etc, etc My final results/decision? I'll let ya's know later ................ just noticed time, and it is time to go! -charles
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2010 11:24:08 AM
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gralan
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People who give expecting to get back are not offering gifts. Its called bribery.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2010 3:02:26 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan People who give expecting to get back are not offering gifts. Its called bribery. Amen!! I know for me, no matter how much or little I give, God sees in my heart that I give it because I love him. There have been times where I have given him my last pennies(lately that happens a lot). He always gives it back to me in some kind of way. The thing is, it's not always money but it is still a great and mighty blessing and always when I least expect it.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2010 5:59:48 PM
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gralan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan People who give expecting to get back are not offering gifts. Its called bribery. Amen!! I know for me, no matter how much or little I give, God sees in my heart that I give it because I love him. There have been times where I have given him my last pennies(lately that happens a lot). He always gives it back to me in some kind of way. The thing is, it's not always money but it is still a great and mighty blessing and always when I least expect it. Hey gmspice, It is good to read a post from you again. We must bounce in different patterns down the halls of CrossWalk. If I'm taking advantage of the building and services, as a member I have a duty to shoulder my portion of the bills. This is not the tithe IMO, its just doing what you are expected to do. If you do not work, you do not eat. If you do not pay the bills, you do not get the services. The tithe is beyond paying one's bills, IMO. If someone wants to know about giving, that's one thing. Or paying one's bills at church, that's another thing. But using the word "Tithe" is a specific pattern of giving. It doesn't matter what people from the last hundred years called it, or are calling it today. If you are using the idea Tithe from the Bible, then a whole system of financial accountability is in order. Otherwise a person ends up playing Bible games. I give as I am able, not only at church, but in my personal life. We have not ever had much, but we've given away two bikes to a father and daughter so they could ride together. We gave a car to a single working mother. We let a disabled friend stay with us 18 months while he got social security. I think God wants more than our money, and I think churches that focus on tithing want our money. Perhaps it is time to rethink what church is about? Is it the pastors job to shepherd the flock or go visiting people who are sick. I seem to remember Jesus talking about those who visited the sick and imprisoned did it to Him and they could go to heaven. Paul wrote about everyone contributing to the worship service; a psalm, a song, a word, etc. I appeal to you therefore brethren by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. I think Paul meant our Tithe and Offering is the whole package of what makes us up, not just our physical body. But then I've blabbed too much.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2010 3:43:48 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
If I'm taking advantage of the building and services, as a member I have a duty to shoulder my portion of the bills. This is not the tithe IMO, its just doing what you are expected to do. IMO, that much can more than be accomplished if all members of most churches only gave 2-3% of income. But I wouldn't want to be a member of a church where the money given mainly went to paying for a buliding and associated bills. I wouldn't want to belong to any church if its members aren't also involved in ministry outside the building and a major portion of the money received goes to ministries, foreign, domestic, and local. quote:
...and I think churches that focus on tithing want our money. What if over 30 years ago the Holy Spirit led me to begin tithing at a time I wasn't a member of any church and apart from any preacher's sermons and, on top of that, I didn't believe tithing had any relevance to us today? Should I refuse to obey that leading now?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2010 10:44:01 PM
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gralan
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My wife and I practiced paying a certain amount monthly to the church for the bills and such. We put in the plate our offerings. The idea of paying ones bills was a minimum to having a church building with electric, water, janitors, etc. If one wants to tithe, well, every three years the tithes didn't go to the Temple but stayed in the neighborhood for all the needy to enjoy. This is why I'm thinking selective practice of the tithe seems not to be in the same vein as most people who think they are satisfying some prescription by their current patterns of giving. What most people I know of do today may be considered offerings, but hardly is the Biblical practice of tithing. The point is to be paying the bills, taking care of the widows and orphaned, those unable to work, funding missions, paying for the education of folks we called out of our congregation to service and ministry as led by the Spirit for their gifts, etc., is beyond the concept of most folks who think of church giving. But church is not some organization who services our needs. The church is us. We pay the bills. We pay the salaries. We should be helping the poor, needy, disenfranchised, abandoned, broken and unhealthy. As we call people to ministry and working their gifts, we should be the ones then that pay for the education we require of them. Some folks demand 4 years of worldly education before seminary, our mission directors and youth leaders need other requirements for education and trainings. Our churches should have adequate ventilation, and full first aid with trained staff, etc. No, many of us miss the idea. We've got some Temple model working in our heads, when the local church should be the synagogue model. Take care of your own first. If you don't work (ministry and service), you don't eat (on the spiritual food and ministries of the church). But then, what do I know. There's no need to put what I need to pay for bills in the collection plate, I know what it is and I can make arrangements for it to go straight to the office. Offerings are those other givings that we do, perhaps including the tithes. Thanks for letting me rant.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2010 4:11:16 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan What most people I know of do today may be considered offerings, but hardly is the Biblical practice of tithing. According to biblical standards or not, the meaning of tithe means one tenth. So, if I give one tenth of my income to Christian ministries, I tithe.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2010 7:32:39 PM
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gralan
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Euty, and others, I'm glad that you have a position you stand firm on, and I agree it is a good stance. Average "tithing" in America last I heard was about 3%. I have a firm stance as well, and I'm confident its a good stance. We are blessed to be doing what we perceive is correct. I am not interested in challenging anyone's practice. We all must operate out of faith, between ourself and the Lord (according to the principle twice mentioned by Paul). From what I gather by reading the Anchor Bible, Interpreters Bible, Ungers, and other sources, those required to tithe under the Mosaic Law were those whose increase came from God's hand because God owned the land. The craftsmen, tent and saddle makers (like Paul), and skilled workers, and the poor and needy did not tithe products and money. The poor and needy received from the tithe. All needed to give freewill offerings. Now, this isn't including Temple taxes, and other payments which were required. I'm just wanting to get to the truth in labeling, as it were. There are specific meaning for specific workings in doctrine and theology. There are specific meanings and applications for Biblical commands and patterns of behaviors. There are specific words, definitions and phrases which their meaning has been established for a very long time. It isn't all just "do what you want and call it whatever you wish" kind of arrangement; this is how the world does things. There is truth, there is reality. Some of what I hear when communicating with others is the idea borrowed from our modern society which says it is all relative. CSLewis had much to say about this in his writings and essays, although he isn't the only one. There is a poster in a Christian forum I go to, who clearly advocates the clear doctrines of Pelagianism, yet he denies it with all his heart and mind. Now, it is not up to me to tell him what to think. However I do not have to accept his definitions of what is plainly and historically true and accurate. One poll of self-professing Evangelicals had an overwhelming majority of respondents denying there was any Ultimate Truth. These people could not be Evangelical Christians if they deny Ultimate Truth. Whatever they call themselves doesn't matter. Would you not agree with that? If I say I'm in support of "No new taxes" but then go on to support increasing existing ones or calling a new tax a "fee", aren't I going around the block but ending up back at contradicting myself? Some of this occurs quite innocently enough. But a lot of disagreement in the Community of the faithful in Christ can be minimized if we end up having a shared vocabulary. The Bible and its vocabulary I would think is our base of operation, and I'm sure you agree. quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan What most people I know of do today may be considered offerings, but hardly is the Biblical practice of tithing. According to biblical standards or not, the meaning of tithe means one tenth. So, if I give one tenth of my income to Christian ministries, I tithe.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2010 10:09:11 AM
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19ramman85
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OK - I gotta get this done! My solution to tithing is this; Tithing must come from, And not the wallet, And such. Meaning that if one can't give from the generosity of their heart - then one isn't tithing by the spirit. Especially when one is down in my income level! lol. Even then - we are taught that the poor widow gave all she had to God, out of her generosity, unlike the Priests who gave for - "show". In my situation, And I may be wrong about this, but after praying And such about it - I kinda doubt it; Paul (?) tells us that we should be generous with our money, yet not so generous that we (me And my family, for instance) - "ourselves", end up needing help. That I am still required to tithe - yet maybe not as more so than some family making in one day, than I do all year. And not to expect anything, nor wonder/worry whether we will be blessed either here on earth, or Heaven above, when we give. And that is regardless of money, time, And or effort! And that God love a generous giver - And gives abundantly, in His own time-frame, not ours. Now that I have explained myself on that, Whadaya think? -charles
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2010 2:33:53 AM
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gralan
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Perhaps I've been too long in the tooth again. I agree with the idea of the cheerful giver. Who could not. The problem I have is with labels and programs; our words actually have meaning.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2010 3:20:49 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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Ok here is the situation. I have a cousin who is struggling big time. She has 3 kids and her husband is in prison. Her power just got cut off (luckily my uncle paid her bill and it is now turned on). She is behind on rent. She works two jobs and still cant make ends meet. She rents a rundown trailer. My question is do you think its ok for me give my tithe/offering to her for a couple of months to help her out instead of giving it to the church? I really feel burdened for her and her kids.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2010 3:33:25 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace Ok here is the situation. I have a cousin who is struggling big time. She has 3 kids and her husband is in prison. Her power just got cut off (luckily my uncle paid her bill and it is now turned on). She is behind on rent. She works two jobs and still cant make ends meet. She rents a rundown trailer. My question is do you think its ok for me give my tithe/offering to her for a couple of months to help her out instead of giving it to the church? I really feel burdened for her and her kids. I don't think there are any "rules" for giving back to God. I have been blessed enough to worship God with tithes AND give to others in need. Sometimes, that has meant I had to make personal sacrifices, but I can't find in scripture where ministry shouldn't cost us personally.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2010 3:53:22 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace Ok here is the situation. I have a cousin who is struggling big time. She has 3 kids and her husband is in prison. Her power just got cut off (luckily my uncle paid her bill and it is now turned on). She is behind on rent. She works two jobs and still cant make ends meet. She rents a rundown trailer. My question is do you think its ok for me give my tithe/offering to her for a couple of months to help her out instead of giving it to the church? I really feel burdened for her and her kids. Greetings quote:
My question is do you think its ok for me give my tithe/offering to her for a couple of months to help her out instead of giving it to the church? Absolutely!! My Wife and I do these things the best we can also when prompted Bear with me here and open the ears I believe this is the principal one is looking for One has to really pay attention to hear those words there, it’s a little complicated Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. When Jesus said these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.... What He is saying there to them is if they had done , (these ought ye to have done, ) meaning the weightier matters of the law, ……it …..would have fulfilled the obligation that when they offered or gave the tithe, of mint and anise and cumin it would be blessed. If they did not or were not obliged to the weightier matters of the law, then what they tithed, it was not blessed because it was left undone by not doing those things So it's like they tithed for nothing!!! So even though they paid the tithe (you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin) and the other >>>> (the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith :), (the tithe) was left undone It was left undone…… when they failed to do these things >>> (the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith :) In principal…..by helping your cousin who is struggling at this point in time, according to Jesus it is the same as if one was paying the tithe, because in other words it fulfills it. So if the local church can’t find the inspiration to help out those in their assigned area of influence, then one fulfills the tithe….. When they see a need…. and fulfill it LG
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2010 4:40:17 PM
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russrocks
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How can anybody discuss tithing without first agreeing on its definition? One gentleman has already told you that true HOLY biblical tithes were always only food from inside God’s holy land which God had miraculously increased. Tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. Period. 16 texts agree; none disagree. Don’t change God’s definition. Yes, the word means “tenth” but its context in God’s Word is food from God’s holy land. While money was very common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never a tithed item. Why not? Why do you not want to go there? Does anybody ever apply hermeneutics to Matthew 23:23? The context is “matters of the law” before Calvary. Jesus was placing a woe upon the scribes and Pharisees who “sit in Moses seat” and interpreted the Law. Then changed, or added to the law, the inclusions of garden herbs. Have you ever seen any garden herbs in your offering plate? Do you preachers who accept “tithes” also own and inherit land? Are you staying among the poor? Those are equally parts of the tithe law you flaunt. NT post-Calvary giving follows Jesus’ example by being sacrificial and generous. As a carpenter Jesus did not qualify as a tithe-payer but he gave his all at Calvary. May I recommend an upcoming book published by Broadman Press, Perspectives on Tithing, Four Views. Pre-order it and save money to give to missions.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2010 4:49:01 PM
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Eutychus
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No thanks, I have the view the Lord gave me when I read through the matter in the Bible in the late 1970s and He told me to return at least 10% to Him. Over 30 years later, I have increased my financial giving and have honored His instruction to me. I will save the entire price so that I can use it with confidence that I am in agreement with what He told me. FWIW, NT giving is more than 10% and more than money. It includes time and talent. It is giving your all, not just materially to the One who gives us everything.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2010 6:27:14 PM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace Ok here is the situation. I have a cousin who is struggling big time. She has 3 kids and her husband is in prison. Her power just got cut off (luckily my uncle paid her bill and it is now turned on). She is behind on rent. She works two jobs and still cant make ends meet. She rents a rundown trailer. My question is do you think its ok for me give my tithe/offering to her for a couple of months to help her out instead of giving it to the church? I really feel burdened for her and her kids. Ignore the "tithe" term for a moment, since that gets people all twisted up. In a situation like this, could you still give to your church AND give to your cousin? That's what I would try to do. Of course, our church is struggling a bit financially, so I wouldn't want to take away my regular contribution there - rob Peter to pay Paul sort of thing.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2010 8:58:17 PM
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bolt.
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Your generosity with God's money should be according to His leading. You are free to make your own stewardship decisions like this -- but keep in mind that feeling sorry for someone is not necessarily God leading you. It is important to seek for His will before you shift from what He has previously been telling you about your finances.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/14/2010 9:19:54 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace Ok here is the situation. I have a cousin who is struggling big time. She has 3 kids and her husband is in prison. Her power just got cut off (luckily my uncle paid her bill and it is now turned on). She is behind on rent. She works two jobs and still cant make ends meet. She rents a rundown trailer. My question is do you think its ok for me give my tithe/offering to her for a couple of months to help her out instead of giving it to the church? I really feel burdened for her and her kids. Ignore the "tithe" term for a moment, since that gets people all twisted up. In a situation like this, could you still give to your church AND give to your cousin? That's what I would try to do. Of course, our church is struggling a bit financially, so I wouldn't want to take away my regular contribution there - rob Peter to pay Paul sort of thing. I wish I had the money to do that. I am a single father with a son and a school teacher. After I tithe/offering and pay all my bills I do not have a lot of extra left. I do help out people after my tithe/offering but it isn't a lot of money. I think being able to give her my tithe/offering would make a lot more impact on her situation.
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 12/14/2010 9:29:56 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/14/2010 10:21:11 AM
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truthrevealed
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quote:
tithe/offering Are you describing two different things here? A tithe and an offering? If so, why not continue to give a tenth to the church and help her with whatever offering is left? For me, the tenth of our income is "reserved" or set-aside for the storehouse but I wouldn't have a problem with helping others with any offering I had(even if it might mean splitting up whatever offering i might give to the church---if i didn't really have a lot of money at the time).
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/14/2010 11:27:36 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed quote:
tithe/offering Are you describing two different things here? A tithe and an offering? If so, why not continue to give a tenth to the church and help her with whatever offering is left? For me, the tenth of our income is "reserved" or set-aside for the storehouse but I wouldn't have a problem with helping others with any offering I had(even if it might mean splitting up whatever offering i might give to the church---if i didn't really have a lot of money at the time). I do tithe and give an offering. But my offering only about 30-50 bucks. So giving her 30-50 bucks wouldn't really change her situation.
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"By the grace of God I am what I am. Christian, the only thing that makes you to differ from the vilest being that pollutes the earth, or from the darkest fiend that gnaws his chains in hell, is the free grace of God!" - Octavius Winslow
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/20/2010 6:16:25 PM
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gralan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace Ok here is the situation. I have a cousin who is struggling big time. She has 3 kids and her husband is in prison. Her power just got cut off (luckily my uncle paid her bill and it is now turned on). She is behind on rent. She works two jobs and still cant make ends meet. She rents a rundown trailer. My question is do you think its ok for me give my tithe/offering to her for a couple of months to help her out instead of giving it to the church? I really feel burdened for her and her kids. The Bible says that those who do not take care of their own are worse than heretics. To be brief, your local church or other ministries are supposed to be making a difference in the real lives of people. This is expressed by Paul in Titus when he writes for Titus to remind the people to do good works which meet pressing needs so that they are not unfruitful. However one believes in tithes and offerings, we are called to do that which is clearly told us by the New Testament Scriptures. To love others, and consider them more worthy than ourselves, are significant in God's eyes. To say that it is more important to give money to an organization rather than to a person appears to me to be a misconception of God's intent. Besides that, it is missing the point of the actual tithes and offerings in their original setting as delivered by God to the peoples of the Old Testament ages. That is not just my opinion, either. Peace to all who wish to love perfectly, just as God does -- as Jesus commanded in his Sermon on the Mount. Perhaps it's time for us all to meditate upon that Sermon again. I know I'm doing that.
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your fellow suffering servant, gralan, //TrinityTheology.org/ //freecourses.org/ The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/20/2010 8:29:40 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2259
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace Ok here is the situation. I have a cousin who is struggling big time. She has 3 kids and her husband is in prison. Her power just got cut off (luckily my uncle paid her bill and it is now turned on). She is behind on rent. She works two jobs and still cant make ends meet. She rents a rundown trailer. My question is do you think its ok for me give my tithe/offering to her for a couple of months to help her out instead of giving it to the church? I really feel burdened for her and her kids. The Bible says that those who do not take care of their own are worse than heretics. To be brief, your local church or other ministries are supposed to be making a difference in the real lives of people. This is expressed by Paul in Titus when he writes for Titus to remind the people to do good works which meet pressing needs so that they are not unfruitful. However one believes in tithes and offerings, we are called to do that which is clearly told us by the New Testament Scriptures. To love others, and consider them more worthy than ourselves, are significant in God's eyes. To say that it is more important to give money to an organization rather than to a person appears to me to be a misconception of God's intent. Wow, great points, gralan! AiHG, I think if you gave her that money, you'd be Jesus' hands and feet directly to her. You'd be "the church" to her... without the extra steps of giving it to the church and then the church giving it to her. And you'd be fine to ask God for confirmation that He is the one who is directing you to do this... or to tithe (to the church) and give her what you can. If it matters to Him which option you choose, He'll let you know.
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"LORD, You light my lamp; my God illuminates my darkness."—Psalm 18:28, HCSB
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/20/2010 10:05:30 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 583
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
And you'd be fine to ask God for confirmation that He is the one who is directing you to do this... or to tithe (to the church) and give her what you can. If it matters to Him which option you choose, He'll let you know. Couldn't agree more with the bolded part because all that we do matters to God!
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THANK YOU GOD!!!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/21/2010 2:35:14 AM
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psalm100
Posts: 919
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace Ok here is the situation. I have a cousin who is struggling big time. She has 3 kids and her husband is in prison. Her power just got cut off (luckily my uncle paid her bill and it is now turned on). She is behind on rent. She works two jobs and still cant make ends meet. She rents a rundown trailer. My question is do you think its ok for me give my tithe/offering to her for a couple of months to help her out instead of giving it to the church? I really feel burdened for her and her kids. A couple of years ago, I knew a lady who was a single parent with two small children. Her electricity was slated to be cut off and she was receiving unemployment benefits. She went to her local church and asked for assistance to pay her electric bill. The church told her they couldn't help her because she wasn't a regular tither. Needless, to say I was very upset with the church's decision not to help her. I knew she needed to have electricity provided she had two small children in the home. I gave her my tithe money instead of my church. I was at peace with my decision and I also thought it was wrong for the church not to help her because she didn't pay her tithes. Would Jesus do such a thing? I think you should help this particular lady and I don't think God will hold it against you.
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I Love You Jesus!!! Read my Blog: The joys and struggles in the life of Psalm100
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